oh myki you're so fine

[hnpcc]

The new myki "smart" card system looks like it's going to be a blast. Tram rides to get slower under myki. They're claiming 5 seconds slower, but based on getting on a tram at Fed Square this morning I think they're dreaming on that one. I would guesstimate about 50-60 people got on my tram. If all of them have to wait for the disembarking passengers (only 20 or so) to scan off, then scan on themselves... well, let's just say 5 seconds seems kind of optimistic.

I can see two possible ways that this could go.

1. No one's going to bother scanning on or off in peak hour. So this vaunted system, which will totally wipe out fare evasion, will work just as well as the current one does. Or doesn't, depending on your perspective.

2. The tram system will grind to a halt during peak hour as people try to ensure they get their damn card scanned while trying to get on and off.

What really irritates me about this system is that it's a return to sectional fares, rather than the time based fares we currently have, except by stealth. They're not telling us that this is what it is, just that "for the cheapest possible fare we need to scan at each end of the journey." So if you get on in, for example, East Melbourne, and scan your card, but don't scan it again at the end when you get off at Fed Square you could potentially be charged the cost of a zone 1 and 2 daily (aka the most expensive fare available.) Or if your card doesn't register for some reason when you scan it at either end you'll be charged the zone 1 and 2 fare. It also appears to be revenue raising by stealth - much easier than using ticket inspectors I'm sure, who have to be paid. And then counselled after abuse from passengers, and then paid stress leave.

And speaking of ticket inspectors, if you do scan your card and it doesn't register then you can still be fined. How do you know it's registered? Well, you don't. How can you prove you scanned it? Well, you can't. This would just be idle speculation, but when they tested the system last year in Geelong on passenger free buses (I love that idea) it failed to register approximately 10% of the time. They rolled it out for good in Geelong on Sunday, and naturally all the problems are completely ironed out. Yeah, sure.

This system is now about $350 million over budget (and over three years late, but whatever). I really wish they'd spent the money on upgrading the train/tram/bus network, fixing train brakes, fixing train air-conditioning, maybe taking out a level crossing or two, putting an extra validation box on buses so you don't have to wait while the one passenger without a ticket buys a ticket from the driver, maybe adding some extra stop buttons to the new trams so they're not just on one side of the tram - which may or may not be the side that you're getting off, depending on which way you're going, maybe adding some additional services to the lines, building some new rail lines, anything actually rather than this myki mouse system we're going to be left with.

Comments

[barrington.livejournal.com]

As they say in the classics, "I couldn't agree more". Time-based fares are what makes Melbourne's system so cheap. There are plenty of problems with Melbourne PT, but price isn't one of them; I was amazed to see articles last year saying ours was the most expensive. My experience in Sydney is quite the opposite. $6 and I can go wherever I want all day? Even if that's just to and from work (assuming I'm not in zone 2), that's a bargain really. Sure I wish it was cheaper - hell, I wish it wasn't privatised and that it was free - but the time-based system works really well in terms of cost, if nothing else. And even though I only work three days a week, I use PT nearly every day, so I generally buy weekly or monthly tickets.

The major problem for the PT network is not the ticketing, it's the overcrowding. Why don't people validate their met cards? Well, sure, some people are fare evaders. You'll never make those people pay for tickets, not on trams anyway - unless maybe you make the fines outrageous. But if I don't do it, it's because my tram is too full and I can't reach the bloody thing. And of course the tram doesn't have to be packed, because once it gets close to full people are so scared of not being able to get off at their stop (or, as you say, not even being able to reach the button) that they crowd into the standing only areas near the doors. And while I make a point of not doing that, I can't say I blame the people who do. It happens on trains too, though of course that doesn't affect how many people validate or not.

Myki makes no sense at all. We don't need a new ticketing system. Metcard has flaws, but they're minor. We need more trams, trains and buses, running more often, and running on time.

[hnpcc]

Sydney prices really shocked me, particularly that it was cheaper to buy a weekly pass if you were planning on more than three day's worth of travel.

I always have a valid ticket, so I don't usually bother validating on trams for the reasons you've mentioned. That and I really can't be bothered getting the ticket out of my purse, which I then have to find in my bag. Sure, I still have to if inspectors get on, but I've never seen them on a tram during peak hour for good reason.

The other reason I love the time based travel is that I can jump on and off trams, trains, buses without having to think about how much the trip costs - I've already paid for it. I would have to really monitor what I'm doing with this damn stupid myki system - one thing that no one seems to have asked or answered (that I can find) is whether there's a daily cap or whether you can keep racking up costs to stupid levels (e.g. CityLink). At least that would reduce the crowding on the trams - I'm guessing a lot of people will walk or drive rather than try and work it out.

People standing in the doorways bug the shit out of me, although I understand why it happens on trains more than trams. Trams at least you've got something to hang on to, trains you really don't if you're not near the seats. You can't fit more people in the spaces because there's nothing to hold on to, and as a result those spaces only get filled if the train is at sardine capacity. Also I've never seen anyone miss their stop because of overcrowding on the tram, people will get on and off to let people out, and hold the tram up to let them get to the door.

I have seen people miss their stop because they weren't paying attention, because the driver wasn't paying attention (why would I stop at Commercial Road? Who the hell gets off there?), or because they couldn't find a button on the tram to push because they were all on the side away from where they were getting off.

OK, that last one was me. Twice.

Myki Sectional vs time fares

[(Anonymous)]

Firstly, Myki doesn't determine fares (it only calculates them based on Govt policy) - the fares are stipulated by the Vic Gov via the Transprot Ticketing Authority - Myki implements whatever the Vic Gov gazetted fares are and applies them as stipulated. As far as I am aware, the Govt has been streamlining fares and zones (3 into 2, eg) over the years and this has nothing to do with Myki or Metcard.

Secondly, technology does need to be replaced because over time it becomes more costly to maintain old systems than replace them - why don't we all drive 1950s classic cars, or use our 1987 80286 PCs? Anyway, even PT ticketing technologies need to be upgraded. The new ticketing system must last until at least 2020 - do you really expect that the current Metcard technology will be supported by the original manufacturer until 2020?

Thirdly, swiping off may seem like an issue, but if London Underground can do it with perhaps 10 million scans per day, I don't see why Melbourne PT users can't - although I too would prefer a single scan system, we will be actually be moving into synch with much of the rest of the world.

Cheers.

Re: Myki Sectional vs time fares

[hnpcc]

Yep understand that the government sets the fares, at the time I wrote this it wasn't being made clear how the fares would work (and still kind of isn't.) I normally get a zone 1&2 either daily or weekly or monthly (depends on schedule) - is my fare going to be calculated at the price I would pay for a monthly? A weekly? What? I have the feeling it'll be calculated as a daily, which effectively increases the costs.

I have no idea how the London Underground does it, I'd be curious to know. Do they have similar numbers of people cramming on to one entry vehicles at crush points, and cramming off again? The 20second extra delay for trams really does seem like a pipe dream, at least based on Fed Sq heading along St Kilda Rd in the morning. What I think will happen is exactly what happens now - no one bothers validating, I can't see people taking the time to carefully scan on and off unless they think they've been scanned on. Then again, if they're going to be charged a full daily fare anyway, who's going to bother scanning off again?

The technology does need to be replaced eventually, but do we have to reinvent the wheel every time we do it? That is of course an entirely separate rant, but it does seem strange that we couldn't have adapted the existing technology of London, Singapore, or all the other places without having to seemingly start from scratch. (The current technology also gives me the irrits, not least because you can't buy a zone 2 two hour if you have a valid zone 1 (eg daily) and get it validated even at a major station like Flinders St. You have to buy a zone 1&2, even though you already have a valid zone 1. As I said, if you encourage people to fare evade, they'll do it. Consistently.)

[vestalvagrant.livejournal.com]

I think what they'd have to do with trams in the CBD is have card readers at the stops, so you can scan on when you arrive at the stop rather than fighting to reach a scanner on the tram. It's the only way it could work. London does a similar thing with some bus routes, you have to buy your ticket from an automatic machine at the bus stop before the bus arrives or they won't let you on. Gets the buses through much quicker, but bites arse if you don't have coins for the machine and your bus is coming.

[hnpcc]

Yeah I thought of that, and they'd probably do that at Fed Square, but seriously, there are times I can barely make it onto the platform there, let alone to a damn card scanner thingy.

Most other stops outside of the CBD/Melbourne Uni/hospitals they wouldn't bother - there'd be too high a risk of vandalism for starters.

[the-gardener.livejournal.com]

From the look of it, myki appears to be very similar to, if not use the same technology as, London's Oyster card system. That had a few problems to start with, but has settled down and is now working fine.

The chief differences between London's and Melbourne's use of smart cards for travel would appear to be (1) London already had a sectional fare structure, so introduction of the card did not change the existing basis on which the fares were calculated; and (2) London has an underground rail system which has always required a ticket to get into and get out of, so that there is no possibility of smart card users "forgetting" to swipe the card on entry and exit.

Of course, smart cards won't deal with the problems of overcorwding on buses and trains/trams, or of failure by transport opeorators to invest in new vehicles, or of the infrequency of services at certain times of the day, or the inconvenient locations of some stops. But these are entirely different issues, and to complain about them in the same breath as the teething problems of travel smart cards strikes me a rather muddled.

[hnpcc]

But these are entirely different issues, and to complain about them in the same breath as the teething problems of travel smart cards strikes me a rather muddled.

I wasn't aware that I had, I was wishing that was what they'd spent the money on instead of this system when we have one that is less than 20 years old already and which works perfectly well. The link, however, is the current Victorian State Government which seems to have a talent for throwing money at things while achieving little. Except for things they could actually solve by throwing money at (like upgrading lines, etc), which they ignore in favour of building more roads "to ease the congestion".

How does the Oyster card work on buses? One of the problems with the trams in particular is that there are usually only 2 or three doors, and having to have people swipe out and swipe in during peak hour is going to be problematic. Unlike buses the doors aren't "front door entering passengers, back door exiting" - all doors are used for both entering and exiting the tram. Unlike a train, you then don't have to swipe a card to get out of the station (well, the major stations you do anyway. The suburban stations are unmanned, with no barriers and mainly uninhabited, which is another reason fare evasion is so rife on the system currently. If you make it that easy for people, guess what, they'll do it.) Even with putting extra swipers at major stops like Fed Square I can still see problems - there are times when it is so crowded people can't actually get onto the tram platform there, and all those people then eventually get on trams to head down St Kilda Rd, and then get off at stops which are not major enough to get their own swiper. St Kilda Rd is congested already (from a tram perspective) and I can't see that having trams sit there for extra minutes while people ensure they've swiped off properly is going to actually help.

The other option here of course is the one I frequently encounter on peak hour buses, when the driver just says "don't bother validating, just get on, I'm running behind schedule" - i.e. most people won't bother swiping their cards either getting on or off the trams (or at the suburban stations, same as they do now.)

The other problem with this card is I don't understand why it appears necessary to reinvent the wheel every time we adopt a system other countries around the world appear to be using perfectly well. The Oyster card is one example, the other mentioned frequently here is Singapore's version which also works well. I don't see that our public transport network is that much different from either of those two, but here we are, 3 years past schedule and several hundred million dollars later with no system.

Of course, smart cards won't deal with the problems of overcrowding on buses and trains/trams, or of failure by transport operators to invest in new vehicles, or of the infrequency of services at certain times of the day, or the inconvenient locations of some stops.

No, but $350 million might go some way towards alleviating some of those problems.

Bah, humbug. :-)

Bah humbug MyKi???

[m2caw.livejournal.com]

I agree
MyKi what a joke i ve been to japan just recently they have A SMART CARD That works perfectly called Sucia
oh and all the stations in tokyo are manned this in a city of 10million people
it cant be that hard to get an efficient transport system running like this in melbourne only 4 million people
the only problem is the lack infrastructure this is due to the government not willing to upgrade any infrastructure
then they blame the operators for late trains and trams
when will the government ADMIT FAULT!!! never to Gutless
why cant the company building this MyKi system get it right it seems to be to hard
another white elephant for melbourne
Nasa spent 400million and got a probe to mars
1.3billion dollars on a smart card system that doesn't work is a waste of tax payers money
nasa could do a better job and we would probably end up on the moon
This Sucia/pasmo card from japan card worked on trams also scan on and off i believe
oh another thing fare adjustment if you purchase the incorrect fare you can pay the difference no ticket inspectors sack them no better still they can become conductors and help people by selling tickets hmm now theres an old idea!!!!