(no subject)

[hnpcc]

I've been following the new "anti-illegal worker" legislation in Arizona with some degree of interest.

What I don't get is how you're supposed to prove your citizenship. Presumably all people living in Arizona will now need to carry their passport or birth certificate/naturalisation certificate at all times, because I can't see any other way of doing it. I was thinking about this up in Queensland - I had absolutely nothing on me to prove I was an Australian citizen. A drivers licence doesn't give citizenship information, and bank details only prove I have a bank account here.

(Yes I know the police are supposed to only pull over people who they "justifiably" believe to be illegal workers, but seriously - try pissing them off and see how fast someone pulls that one. Couple of hours in jail while you phone someone to get your birth certificate will teach you to be mouthy.)

So obviously the next logical step would be for Arizona to legislate for a mandatory ID card - it's smaller than a passport for starters, and will fit nicely into your wallet. For some reason I don't see that going down well in Arizona.

Comments

[valamelmeo.livejournal.com]

Technically, you're not supposed to be able to get a drivers license without being a citizen or legal resident (in most states). However, the only proof the drivers license people ask for is a Social Security card, which are notoriously easily faked, being just a bit of light perforated-edge card stock, unlaminated, with a name and number printed on. Fake Social Security cards are really easy to come by.

There are a lot of misconceptions here about what documentation is required to prove citizenship, mainly because of confusion between "citizenship" and "eligibility to work in the US". Everybody is familiar with the I-9 form (http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-9.pdf) they have to fill out and provide supporting documentation for when they get a new job, and most people provide a drivers license and Social Security card (that doesn't have "not eligible for work" printed on it) for that.

I've had to point out to a few people that practically nobody carries around with them at all times documentation that proves they are a citizen. Citizens aren't required to do such things, at least not right now they're not. Work-eligible non-citizens and other legal residents do have a card of some sort declaring their status, but there's no such thing right now for citizens, though I've heard that Congress is talking about making Social Security cards carry some sort of biometric information (the way passports already do), basically turning them into a Federal ID card. As if that'll blow over with the oh-noes-Mark-of-the-Beast Evangelicals (they said that about Social Security numbers at first, too).

That reminds me, I need to renew my passport... Not only does it prove my citizenship, I like having the option of leaving the country whenever I feel like it. ^_^

[hnpcc]

I was wondering about the drivers licence - it seemed logical that you would have to provide ID, but then drivers licences didn't seem to be being accepted as valid forms of ID for citizenship which made me wonder about what you needed to get them. Here you need to provide 100 points of ID, with birth/naturalisation certificate (or extract I think for licences) and passport being the most common documents provided. You can also provide bills with your home address, bank statments ditto, etc, but they're worth fewer points.

Is it mandatory to carry your licence at all times while driving in Arizona as well?

I think our equivalent of social security number is tax file number, which basically no one carries with them (too important). I get mine off my previous year's tax return every time, it's the only way I can remember it.

We've been having a lot of discussions about the Arizona legislation - Mexico issuing a travel warning to its citizens is an interesting development, and one I think that does not bode well for the future of that piece of legislation. The apparently illegal nature of the legislation on two fronts (targeting one ethnic group and taking over powers reserved for the federal government) I think are what are most likely to see it sunk quickly.

Actually seriously for me one of the strangest things is why some Arizona Republicans supported this at all - it would seem a very long-term suicidal strategy to discriminate openly against a large part of your electorate, especially when at least part of the remaining electorate also disagrees with you. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, or maybe they think the short term gain in the polls is worth it.

Yeah I saw the biometric card proposal - interesting debate going on in the comments at obsidian wings. I guess it comes down to what do you want more - individual liberty or an end to non-documented workers. Heh.

[valamelmeo.livejournal.com]

Different states have different rules about what ID is required to get a drivers license. Like, here in Texas we have these (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/identificationrequirements.htm) requirements, and in Arizona these (http://mvd.azdot.gov/mvd/formsandpub/viewPDF.asp?lngProductKey=1410&lngFormInfoKey=1410) (note the additional stipulation that all documents must be in English...)

In all states it is mandatory to carry your drivers license if you are driving. Arizona in particular is not even tolerant of out-of-state licenses--if you've been a resident of Arizona for more than 30 days and haven't changed your license you can be ticketed for that (10 days if you move within AZ or change your name).

The Social Security card itself recommends keeping it in a safe place, but in practice everybody carries it around because it's used as secondary identification for so many things. In fact, here in Texas you have to show your Social Security card in order to obtain/renew your drivers license (but not a non-driving state ID card, for some reason). Not to mention how easily forged Social Security cards are to begin with.

Today there was a rally here in Dallas against the immigration law, and some counter-protesters showed up waving their drivers licenses in the air, waving signs saying things like "Just Show ID". When I saw that on the news I nearly fell over laughing. You don't have to be a citizen to get a drivers license. Or a Social Security card, since you need the number for tax purposes, and non-citizens who work here have to pay taxes too.

I sarcastically suggested to someone that we should hire a bunch of uniformed officers to stand at the grocery stores and not let anyone buy food without proving they're here legally... It'd create jobs!

[hnpcc]

I had a giggle at Texas not accepting out of state licences as a primary ID document. I take it there's not interstate access to databases then.

Victoria's requirements are here. Similar although obviously the photo ID for firearms licences would differ a bit!

[vestalvagrant.livejournal.com]

I get confused enough by the signs on trams explaining who can buy a concession card. To buy a concession card you need proof you're entitled to that concession. People 15 and under can buy concession tickets. The sign also says people 15 and under don't need to carry proof of age. So really, all any young-looking person needs to do is buy a concession ticket, say they're under 15 if asked, and then refuse to produce ID.

[hnpcc]

A friend of mine at uni did that for years - mind you, he looked about 12 (very skinny). He was a bit disappointed when he actually filled out and had to buy a concession card.

It may say you don't have to produce ID but in practice if you're in a secondary school uniform they will demand it. If you look like you're in secondary school they will demand it. If you look like you're an overseas student, no matter what your age, they will demand it and get very verbally aggressive and arrest you until you provide some form of ID. At least judging by the interactions I've seen at Flinders St Station.

It'd be interesting to see if anyone manages to use "I'm under 15" and get left alone. Again, judging by Flinders St, no.

[hnpcc]

Actually I think you need the proof of concesssion eligibility, but you don't need proof of age. So to get the concession you have to have the concession card on you but you don't have to carry something on you to say you're eligible. Kind of a looped argument there, seeing as to get the card you need the form stamped by your school.

I wonder if that applies to primary school kids too, or whether they assume they don't travel alone.

[bungo.livejournal.com]

Not really relevant to AZ: Here in Germany adults are supposed to carry either a passport or national ID card at all times. I don't, routinely, and I suspect many others don't either. (I do carry my German driver's license, which I hope will let me prove identity enough to be treated kindly while I go home to get my ID to prove residency. Then again, I have a slight advantage in that I don't look [very] foreign.) Much more importantly, I carry my health insurance card for the day I'm hit by a bus.

I hope Arizona, and Australia, continue to resist these ID card urges.

[hnpcc]

It seems to be a very Australian thing (and probably a thing for citizens of other countries that don't have ID cards) to routinely forget to carry one. When I lived in Belgium I usually forgot mine[1], even managing to travel to Koln with neither ID card nor passport. (Mind you, I also travelled to France 5 times before I found out you were supposed to have a visa. Amazing what coming in in an EU-registered car lets you get away with!)

[1]I also failed to report to the town hall within 14 days of arrival to get one, not having read the visa properly. I realised about 3 months later that I was supposed to have done that, and then went and got it. I've still got the card (yes I know it says "must be returned" but I read that after I returned to Australia... and didn't bother.)

[hnpcc]

I hope Arizona, and Australia, continue to resist these ID card urges.

I'm not sure if they will, it seems to be an issue that comes up every couple of years. The latest manifestation is the Medicare card version (which isn't technically an ID card but certainly has the potential to become one). I can see why they'd like to link your Medicare number to all your health records (it'd cut down on doctor shopping no end for starters) but I don't trust the security of their systems enough at this stage to support it.

Thinking about it I pretty much routinely carry my driver's licence, Medicare card, bank cards, etc. None of which actually prove my citizenship status of course, although the likelihood that I'd have them all without at least PR is pretty low.