(no subject)
Mar. 19th, 2003 06:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hnpccIt's been an interesting couple of weeks in the office, mostly due to the pro/anti-war debates going on.
S. migrated here from Iraq. Her family are living in Baghdad. She is very, very pro-war. The sooner the bastard's out the better. Then her family - providing they survive - can get on with living and not watching their backs. S.'s family is of Iranian background, hence the watching backs. No one's being allowed to leave Baghdad this time. Last time her family went to a town a couple of hundred k away and waited out the war there. This time they're stuck. She wants a quick war. Both of us fear that it'll end up with house to house fighting - as she said, if that starts you're relying on God/Allah to protect yourself.
R. migrated here from the US (I think) but he's originally from somewhere else in central Europe. He's old enough to remember war. He is very anti-war. There is no justification ever for war. He and S. have some interesting debates - helped along by R. being hearing impaired and it therefore being necessary to yell in order for him to hear.
Most of the rest of us in this office are in "shades of grey". I'm one of them. I don't want war in Iraq, but nor do I think allowing the political situation to continue there is particularly good. I don't believe Bush and co are going in with open, honest motives, but I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing if Saddam were to be removed. Do I think there are "weapons of mass destruction"? Yeah, and how do we know: we sold them to him. Do I think Saddam will go "bloodlessly" into exile as did Idi Amin? No. Unfortunately he seems to be far more of a death and glory person. Do I think removing him will bring democracy to Iraq. Probably no. Do I think Bush pushing this is an absolute gift to Osama Bin Laden? Yep. Do I think Iraq was linked with Al Queda? Nope. The suicide bombings in Israel, yep, you can link them with that all right, but it's a pretty tenuous link that's been given to the public to support the war. Maybe there's more - but like most people I'll probably believe it when I see it. Is Iraq linked to Bali? Oh for fuck's sake...
I find the glorification of the MOAB weapons on the front page disturbing. I find the pictures of the bunker with "Presidential Command Room" located down the corridor from "Children's playroom" disturbing. I find both the far left and the far right disturbing in their complete lack of regard for the people who are going to get totally fucked over by the whole thing, whichever way it goes. It's too easy to see only the pretty explosions and forget the actual impact.
Basically I tend to think whether we go to war or stay at home the Iraqi people get screwed.
So I'm praying for peace, or, as a least worst, a quick war.
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S. migrated here from Iraq. Her family are living in Baghdad. She is very, very pro-war. The sooner the bastard's out the better. Then her family - providing they survive - can get on with living and not watching their backs. S.'s family is of Iranian background, hence the watching backs. No one's being allowed to leave Baghdad this time. Last time her family went to a town a couple of hundred k away and waited out the war there. This time they're stuck. She wants a quick war. Both of us fear that it'll end up with house to house fighting - as she said, if that starts you're relying on God/Allah to protect yourself.
R. migrated here from the US (I think) but he's originally from somewhere else in central Europe. He's old enough to remember war. He is very anti-war. There is no justification ever for war. He and S. have some interesting debates - helped along by R. being hearing impaired and it therefore being necessary to yell in order for him to hear.
Most of the rest of us in this office are in "shades of grey". I'm one of them. I don't want war in Iraq, but nor do I think allowing the political situation to continue there is particularly good. I don't believe Bush and co are going in with open, honest motives, but I don't necessarily think it would be a bad thing if Saddam were to be removed. Do I think there are "weapons of mass destruction"? Yeah, and how do we know: we sold them to him. Do I think Saddam will go "bloodlessly" into exile as did Idi Amin? No. Unfortunately he seems to be far more of a death and glory person. Do I think removing him will bring democracy to Iraq. Probably no. Do I think Bush pushing this is an absolute gift to Osama Bin Laden? Yep. Do I think Iraq was linked with Al Queda? Nope. The suicide bombings in Israel, yep, you can link them with that all right, but it's a pretty tenuous link that's been given to the public to support the war. Maybe there's more - but like most people I'll probably believe it when I see it. Is Iraq linked to Bali? Oh for fuck's sake...
I find the glorification of the MOAB weapons on the front page disturbing. I find the pictures of the bunker with "Presidential Command Room" located down the corridor from "Children's playroom" disturbing. I find both the far left and the far right disturbing in their complete lack of regard for the people who are going to get totally fucked over by the whole thing, whichever way it goes. It's too easy to see only the pretty explosions and forget the actual impact.
Basically I tend to think whether we go to war or stay at home the Iraqi people get screwed.
So I'm praying for peace, or, as a least worst, a quick war.
</lj-cut
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no subject
Date: 2003-03-19 03:43 am (UTC)I too am very much in the middle for this for the usual reasons of being in the middle.
I beleive Blair and Bush have ulterior motives. I beleive things are going too fast and ditching the UN is an exstremely dangerous thing to do on countless levels. I also beleive there are cases for justification of war and this could have ended up being one through the appropriate channels, with the appropriate protocol, diplomacy and time. I beleive war will do an awful lot of good for the country but also unleash an awful lot of chaos at the same time. I also beleive that this man is a threat to world security and does need to be stopped one way or another. I do not agree with the way we have gone to war, but I sympathise with what is happening and wish those conducting the war every success in having a quick and succesfull and hopefully as bloodless a possible conclusion to this as possibly they can. Thankfully I do have some element of trust in the British Armed forces. More than I do in the British Government by far. I do not agree how we've gone to war, but I agree - for the UK's part at least - that we have reputable people doing it. I still do not trust America, especially in what will happen afterwards. I'm also cautious of Turkey . I agree there are no links with Al Queda (they actually hate eachother, Sadam is a secularist) but there are an awful lot of other people to worry about. I'm also concerned for the welfare of the Iraqi people who are going to suffer the most.
And I agree, those at the exstremes of hawkism and pacifism are very scary. Note I didn't use the terms left and right. I don't like using those terms in this context. I am far left but very centre ground on this issue. Others in the left are pro war and many in the right anti war. You can draw broad generalisations but I don't think it is safe to absolutely conclude a left/right divide here.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-19 05:32 pm (UTC)There was a poll on the BBC web site a week or so ago which read:
Which position do you agree with: USA and Britain OR France and Russia. I think they missed the obvious third choice: None of the above.
That is my position. War became inevitable as soon as France and Russia said they would Veto any new resolution authorising war regardless. To me this made their position completely unclear. They have been saying all along that IF the weapons inspectors found evidence that Iraq was hiding chemical weapons, then the use of force was warranted as a last resort.
On the other hand there is no need for the war to begin before the summer. Wouldn't it make more sense to allow the weapon inspectors to complete their job.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-19 09:53 pm (UTC)I guess it's all started now.
Apparently people were able to leave Baghdad in the last couple of days, although S. doesn't know if her parents did or not. Haven't been able to get a phone line through for the last two days anyway.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-19 10:26 pm (UTC)We are not starved of information though. It's amazing just how much effort has gone into cnn.com, news.bbc.co.uk etc. to report on this war.